Lori Zukin: Facts vs. Stories: How Self-Awareness Makes Better Leaders
Lori Zukin — Canopy Practice Success Podcast
Canopy Host (00:05) Welcome to another episode of Canopy Practice Success. I am your host, Casey Brothers. Today on the podcast, I’m excited to welcome Lori Zukin. Lori is the CEO and founder of Zukin Leadership, an organizational psychologist, and executive coach with more than 25 years of experience.
She works with leaders across professional services and beyond, and currently facilitates with Simon Sinek’s Optimism Company while coaching leaders in the Presidential Leadership Scholarship Program — founded by President George H.W. Bush and President Bill Clinton. Lori believes she doesn’t specialize in industries; she specializes in people.
Today we’re diving into the psychology of leadership, trust, and mental health in high-pressure environments like accounting firms. Lori, I am so excited.
Lori Zukin (00:51) I am as well. Thank you so much for having me.
Canopy Host (00:54) Before we get to it, I want to hear more about what we mentioned in your intro. Talk to us about your experience facilitating content with Simon Sinek and the Presidential Leadership Scholarships Program.
Lori Zukin (01:09) PLS is what we call it — a little easier.
During COVID, the Optimism Company by Simon Sinek had to change their delivery approach. Like many organizations, they came together and said: we want to offer useful content, and we have to do it virtually.
They came to me and said they knew about some of the work I do around clear communication and effective meetings. So I put together workshops tailored to them. It must have been thousands of people during the height of COVID — workshops ranging from 25 to 90 minutes on clear communication, how to make effective requests and agreements, and how to run effective virtual meetings.
Those went really well. Now I’m working even more closely with Simon’s team on facilitations for senior leaders across all industries — the U.S. Tennis Association, various nonprofit and government organizations, and hopefully the Army coming up. I’ve also facilitated workshops directly for Simon and his direct reports.
Canopy Host (02:50) Fascinating. There are real dynamics that change in a virtual environment — you can’t just function the same way you did before COVID. Even if some firms are back full-time in the office, hybrid and remote mean you can’t overlook it.
Lori Zukin (03:38) Exactly. The key is having clear norms on what’s expected — whether you’re at home or coming in. In a lot of the offices I work with, especially startups, there are large open areas. They want people to come in, but then no one can hear each other on calls. So: what are the expectations when you do come in? How do you share information while respecting confidentiality? If you’re doing remote calls, is it expected that you’re on camera? Do people have the bandwidth at home to be on?
When we don’t lay out those expectations, people get frustrated and uncomfortable — and that reduces trust.
Canopy Host (04:30) You said a really big word there: trust.
We’re talking to an industry that has inherited a lot of cultural habits that people are white-knuckling still, while many others leave the industry because of them. What is trust in the workplace, and why does it matter?
Lori Zukin (05:04) Trust isn’t just one thing. There’s been a lot written about it, but at its core, trust comes down to three questions: Is that person capable? Are they reliable? And are their intentions what they say they are?
It helps to break it down that way. Will they do what they said? Do they have the skill for the job? And even if the outcome wasn’t what I hoped — do they mean well?
When we break trust into those three areas, we can figure out how to build trust with someone, but also assess where trust is actually breaking down. Because a lot of times we throw out “I can’t trust that person” — when maybe there are parts of that person you can trust and parts you can’t. Breaking it down helps you have a more useful conversation.
There’s also a second piece I’d add: so many clients call me and say “my team doesn’t trust each other.” But when I dig in, the real issue is often structural. If a team doesn’t have clear roles, a clear shared objective, or clear decision authority, people start accidentally stepping on each other’s toes. My intentions are positive, but I start doing something that feels like your job — and that creates distrust even when there’s no bad intent.
In my early years, I’d focus on the relationship piece first. Over time, I realized that a lot of teams haven’t clarified their purpose, their roles and responsibilities, or their decision authority. When we establish that structure first, the trust issues often resolve — and then we can bring in the relationship work.
Canopy Host (07:15) That resonates. I do a lot of persona research at Canopy, and years ago I spent time going through accounting firm job postings. Coming from tech, where role clarity is very specific, I found it genuinely hard to figure out who was responsible for what. Multiple staff accountants, tax managers, partners, office admins — but who owns what?
In my team at Canopy, we have clear ownership across product marketing, content, email, ads. It’s defined. And hearing you say that lack of clarity is what creates trust breakdown — that reframes a lot.
Lori Zukin (09:10) Exactly. You don’t need perfect role clarity — especially in growing organizations — but as much as possible, it helps. When someone feels stepped on, the first question should be: is this truly a character issue, or is it a structural one? Are there misunderstandings around roles, decision authority, or expectations that we haven’t addressed?
Canopy Host (10:12) In your experience working with accounting firms, who do you typically coach? Is it always partners, or do you see people at other levels engaging with executive coaches?
Lori Zukin (10:36) Most of my personal work is with CEOs, C-suite, and partners. My team works with all levels — we do both one-on-one coaching and team coaching to help teams perform better: decision-making, trust, outcomes.
Some of the issues that come up: how to communicate more effectively with peers and direct reports, how to build trust across the team, navigating major organizational change — like private equity conversations — and how to communicate all of that. People who’ve been promoted into new positions and need support handling the new complexity, building credibility with a new peer group, or adjusting to being senior to people who were previously their peers.
And those issues are not unique to accounting.
Canopy Host (11:59) Not at all.
Lori Zukin (12:14) In my work with Baker Tilly, I did coaching and also ran a two-year leadership immersion — we call it an immersion, not a program, because “program” implies a beginning and an end, and the learning is ongoing.
We noticed some differences between accountants and non-accountants, but not major ones. Accountants do bring more of an analytical perspective. But the high potentials we were working with already had a big-picture mindset. They recognized when to use their technical skills and when to lean into communication and relationships.
Canopy Host (13:50) I want to pivot to something listeners might be personally curious about: how do I know when I’m ready to work with an executive coach?
I mentioned before we hit record that I’ve recently started that journey. I’ve had bosses over the years with executive coaches, both company-provided and personal. What’s the difference between an executive coach and a life coach — and how does someone know it’s time?
Lori Zukin (14:34) Great question. Executive coaching focuses on leaders and aspiring leaders in an organizational context. Personal and life issues do come up — I take a holistic approach — but life coaching, as I understand it, is broader: general life goals without the specific focus on work and leadership.
As for when someone is ready: I’ll share my own story. About 15 years ago, I got my first big promotion at Booz Allen Hamilton. I was holding my laptop, running to a big meeting, when my boss pulled me into his office and said: “Zukin, you are a leader now. You can’t be running down the hall like that. People are watching you. I know you were ready for this position — but you have to be aware of the impact of your behavior and your state of mind on others.”
That was eye-opening for me.
Canopy Host (15:50) That reminds me of the book Executive Presence by Sylvia Ann Hewlett. I haven’t read it yet, but the title alone captures exactly what you’re describing.
Lori Zukin (16:02) Yes — and there’s another good one called Leadership Presence. But that moment is what got me into coaching. My boss said he thought I’d benefit from working with a coach as I stepped into the role. He was right.
Those nuances matter. We know these realities exist in leadership — but until you’re in the position, until someone points it out, you don’t necessarily know how to shift. We don’t want to get in our own way just because we lacked that information.
Canopy Host (16:54) Exactly. And that’s the gift of someone pulling you aside.
So for your listeners — when is it time to get a coach?
Lori Zukin (17:15) When you recognize a shift you want to make. Whether it’s a new promotion, a big project, or just a feeling that something is different — you’re starting to see things differently and you want help with that perspective shift.
That’s really what coaching helps people do: develop greater self-awareness. And then be in greater choice about what to do with that awareness. If I had to name the single most important leadership capability, it’s self-awareness.
Canopy Host (18:09) I started working with an executive coach about six months ago because of some relationships I was trying to navigate. I felt like I could confide in my boss, but at some point it felt right to have an outside perspective — someone who wasn’t evaluating my performance.
She pulled up LinkedIn profiles. She doesn’t know these people at all, but she started making connections: here’s what I’m reading in the background, here’s what might be affecting their behavior. Even when the assumptions were probably off, it completely took down my defensiveness.
I tend to get defensive. I’m grateful I know that about myself, because it lets me catch it. But sometimes it’s almost physiological — I need to go for a run. And that exercise, even when the conclusions were wrong, gave me so much more patience for approaching my colleagues. That’s what I need as I grow into a leadership role.
Lori Zukin (20:29) That’s a great example of the work. What I’m hearing is that we all tell ourselves stories about other people and situations.
One exercise I use a lot: when someone brings me a complaint about a colleague, I ask them to distinguish between the facts and the opinions. The facts are what you’d see on film. The opinions are your assessment of it.
The fact: someone slammed their hand on the table. The story: they were angry with you. But maybe they were angry at something else. Maybe they were scared. Maybe they were just trying to stay alert. What is the fact — and what is the story?
The more you practice making those distinctions, the more you realize how often we create unnecessary downward spirals, especially when we’re already not at our best. The work is to identify: what is the limiting belief I have about this person or situation, and how can I shift it to something less limiting?
Canopy Host (22:01) You’re always going to over-index on the things you know — and so much of what you know is deeply internal. Your insecurities, your stress from home, your whatever. Nobody else knows 90% of what’s going on in our heads.
And we use all of that to color our interpretation of someone slamming a hand on the desk. But we don’t know their 90% either.
Lori Zukin (22:43) Exactly. This is why I wish everyone had a good coach and a therapist. The world would be kinder — and we’d get more done.
This isn’t a kumbaya statement. It’s practical. I spend hours on conflict resolution because people are telling themselves stories that create unnecessary swirl and waste productive time. If they had more self-awareness, so much of that conflict would disappear.
Canopy Host (23:15) I have a love of Scandinavia. I read The Little Book of Hygge years ago, written by the CEO of the Happiness Institute in Copenhagen. I’m currently reading another of his books, The Art of Danish Living: How to Find Happiness In and Out of Work.
His argument — and mine too — is that happier people are more productive. When someone is well-rested, well-fed, socially connected, and genuinely excited to come to work, their hours produce so much more than someone who’s under-slept or whose personal life is in crisis. When you create conditions for employees to thrive outside of work, they thrive inside of work.
Lori Zukin (24:42) One hundred percent — and it’s a fact, not just a belief. That’s where the whole-person approach to coaching comes in. If someone is miserable at work, there are often simple things worth checking first. Sleep. Food. I did a LinkedIn post on this: sometimes all someone needs is a snack and a walk around the block. Do that before a hard meeting.
One thing I talk about a lot is state of mind — being aware of whether you’re above the line or below the line. Above the line means you’re open, resourceful, clear. Below the line is reactive, defensive, depleted.
If you’re below the line, do what you can to get to neutral before a tough conversation. And if you can’t get there, take a break. Don’t start a hard conversation when you’re running on empty.
Canopy Host (25:49) Our CEO actually sent our leadership team a video on this concept a while back. Is it the same idea as the book Above the Line?
Lori Zukin (26:06) The Conscious Leadership Group has a short video on it, and their book is called Conscious Leadership — that’s probably the one.
I’d add one nuance: as a society, we push the idea that we have to be happy all the time. But being below the line isn’t a failure — it’s human. The goal isn’t constant happiness; it’s awareness. Know when you’re below the line, know the impact it has, and communicate about it when you can’t get above it. You can say: “I just got some hard news. I’m not my usual self today — I hope you’ll understand.” That kind of transparency protects your relationships even when you can’t show up at your best.
Canopy Host (27:29) Good distinction — thank you. Okay, rapid fire to wrap up.
What do you feel is the most overlooked skill in firm leaders today?
Lori Zukin (28:16) Truly seeing others for something they can’t see in themselves. When a leader takes time to recognize a talent or strength in someone that person doesn’t know they have — that’s rare. And it matters at every level, not just in formal leadership roles. You can be a leader regardless of your title.
Canopy Host (28:37) I love that. Next — self-awareness or experience: what matters more long-term?
Lori Zukin (28:49) Self-awareness.
Canopy Host (28:50) Fast answer. I think if you’re self-aware, you get to the right experience faster. Yeah?
Lori Zukin (29:02) Exactly. It comes down to this: wisdom matters more than knowledge.
Canopy Host (29:07) Love that. Lori, thank you so much. You were a delight. This was a unique conversation for this podcast — but our listeners deal with these things too. Leaders everywhere face this. I appreciated getting to share a little of my own experience. Thank you.
Lori Zukin (29:14) My pleasure. I’m happy to answer any questions that surface. I love talking about this work. And I’ll say it again — I wish everyone had a coach and a therapist. The world would be a much better place. years building and scaling CAS across small firms, tech platforms, and national organizations, long before it became a buzzword. She brings a practical, grounded perspective on technology, automation, and how firms can use AI without losing the human side of advisory.
Michelle, welcome. We are excited to have you.
Michelle Voyer (00:38)
Thank you so much, excited to be here.
Canopy Host (00:40)
You are our second CohnReznick specialist expert. CohnReznick is a very large firm and has been in CAS for a long time. So not only you individually and your career, but you’re now at an organization that is highly specialized in CAS.
If you had to break CAS down to its bare bones, what would you say you have to have in order to say you’re doing CAS?
Michelle Voyer (01:25)
That’s a great question. I would say you have to have the desire to advise your clients, because that’s the true essence of CAS.
In our practice, everyone decides what they want — how many A’s they want or what the A stands for. Historically, I’ve always been the client accounting services gal. But here we purposefully say we are client advisory services, which includes client accounting services.
A lot of people, when you’re describing what CAS is, make the realization and relate it to something they know in their own life. And they say, “Bookkeeping — you do bookkeeping.” A lot of people in CAS take offense to that. I can understand why.
Canopy Host (02:25)
I heard someone recently say it’s a four-letter word, and I was like, is it?
Michelle Voyer (02:29)
I think the reason some folks feel that way is because it has been used in a derogatory manner — maybe not intentionally, but it’s like, “You’re just doing bookkeeping, how hard could it be?” Luckily it’s no longer like this today, but it was really a lack of understanding and appreciation for the work.
Personally, I think of bookkeeping as relatable. I don’t hesitate to use that word to help explain what we do. Bookkeeping is a part of it — that’s the core that feeds into the ultimate CAS work. But CAS is so much more than that.
Canopy Host (03:35)
Accounting gives you access to so much rich data on a business and their behaviors. As a college student in an English writing class, I argued for adding a financial literacy requirement to general education. I felt insecure in my own financial knowledge for a long time, and I saw that in my peers too.
You take people who aren’t practicing those skills and make them entrepreneurs or business owners. There’s so much information in accounting data — where’s your money going, where is it not going, what do you say yes to, what do you say no to. Tying that to goals is crucial for small business America.
Michelle Voyer (05:40)
At times it’s surprising — now I kind of expect it, but sometimes people can be surprised by how large of organizations can still be getting by with such weak information about how their business is running.
Canopy Host (05:59)
Weak information, poor practices, or both?
Michelle Voyer (06:04)
Both. And I’d throw technology in there too. When we think of poor financial literacy, we often picture the entrepreneur, the startup, the sole practitioner. But even recent incoming clients — not small business owners — are saying, “I don’t quite trust my P&L, but I roughly know how much I’m making because I know what’s in my bank account.”
Clients also come to us self-conscious, saying, “We don’t really have procedures or policies yet — we need to get our house in order before we can work with you.” And we always say, no, that’s what we’re here for. We’ll help develop your policies and procedures, get your technology straight, help with your financials.
Too often, both clients and practitioners treat all the work we do as a means to the monthly financial package. Everyone exerts their time, energy, effort, and resources to delivering a timely and accurate financial statement. That is the baseline — I’d say it’s table stakes, but I don’t want to undermine how much goes into that.
That’s why it’s been a challenge for advisory practices to truly get to the point of advising clients. They’re exerting everything they have to get to that monthly package. That’s why we’re so excited about what AI and automation can do to speed up that process.
Canopy Host (08:16)
What is in that package, and do clients get it? Or do they look at you and say, “What?”
Michelle Voyer (08:26)
It depends. Understanding your client’s goals is so important. Our standard is a monthly package at minimum — backed up by a weekly close, or even a perpetual close. The goal everyone’s racing toward is the zero-day close, where data is flowing in at such high quality that it’s real time.
Real time is a very serious promise to make, and a lot needs to happen to get there for every single client. The banking industry in the U.S. is so decentralized — accounts are subject to hundreds if not thousands of different banking platforms run by each institution individually. Some clients may only need quarterly financials. If you’re chasing them for weekly information and they’re not getting things to you until quarter, there might be a reason for that.
You need to understand your client and what’s important to them. Clients come to us because it’s reliable, accurate, and timely. When clients come to a larger firm with deeper industry expertise, it’s not just for themselves — they have investors, banks, covenants, and stakeholders to report to.
Canopy Host (11:42)
When clients come for your services, do they know what they want? Do they ask for a faster horse, or do they know they want the Model T?
Michelle Voyer (12:08)
That’s interesting. With the rise of AI, a growing number of prospects and clients are coming to us who actually care how it’s getting done. They want to make sure we’re not just going to throw hours and labor at it — they know that can break over time, with knowledge transfers and staff turnover. The more automated the workflows, the better for everyone. They’re willing to pay to know you’re committed to automation.
That said, most clients come to us and the ask is simple: timely, accurate financials. That’s the table stakes. Because they’re asking for that, it becomes the golden egg that everyone puts everything into — “Here’s your timely and accurate package, this is what you wanted.” Yes, it’s what they wanted, but the real value comes after that. Don’t just be content that you’ve got them timely and accurate financials and repeat that every month for the next 10 years.
Canopy Host (13:54)
That’s so important. Clients are asking for a faster horse. They know they need better data, but they aren’t necessarily jumping to the next step themselves. The opportunity is there to take them further — with passion and excitement — beyond what they even imagined was possible.
People in this space express imposter syndrome a lot. Having an industry vertical or two is so crucial. Is there anything else you’d recommend to help someone get past it?
Michelle Voyer (14:59)
I think imposter syndrome is higher in women naturally. I think the way through it, particularly at a firm, is to question why you’re feeling that way and ask: are you surrounded by the right people?
You can’t wing it or fake industry expertise, or deep technical accounting expertise. The same is true for technology and automation — you really cannot fake that either. What’s so important is knowing what you know and knowing what you don’t know, then surrounding yourself with the right people and bringing the right people to the table. Don’t be afraid if you have the right expert but they’re not on a call — bring them in for the next one. You don’t have to have all the answers. It’s your ability to navigate and be a shepherd for your client.
I’m very fortunate being at a firm like CohnReznick, where our industry verticals are strategically aligned with the firm’s verticals. But I’d give the same advice to anyone in a smaller firm or working independently — the networks and alliances are out there. You can still be that shepherd for your client, bringing maximum value because you’re bringing in the right expert.
Canopy Host (18:32)
You have such great expertise in technology, automation, and AI. Another way to add to your expertise is through systems. There’s so much data richness in finance. What are some ways CAS individuals or firms can deepen their differentiation and value through systems, processes, automation, and AI?
Michelle Voyer (19:33)
My feeling on that is similar to getting into an industry vertical — look at what you already have. Really understand your team and their expertise, and your current client base. Some of our staff are doing excellent work in a vertical they have experience in, in an industry we’re not even touching yet. Use that to decide whether it’s an industry vertical or a system you already know well.
I’m a fan of starting small and expanding from there. When it comes to technology, there are so many systems out there and it’s easy to fall in love with more than one. Once you’ve vetted something and you’re ready to go, run a client, two clients, three clients through it. Be hands-on. If you’re a leader and want to speak to the technology, go to the demos, go to the kickoff, stay close to the team. That’s the only way to get a deep understanding of the products.
Take the calls, take the demos. We’ve sat through so many demos and it takes time in an already back-to-back day. But I can’t recommend it enough — knowing the systems you didn’t select is just as important as knowing the systems you did. Clients come to you having been pitched on something else, and you don’t want a deer-in-the-headlights moment.
Canopy Host (23:09)
What are one or two of your favorite automations recently?
Michelle Voyer (23:13)
There’s one system I am constantly name-dropping because I just wish them nothing but more business: DataBlend. I remember they approached me at Digital CPA and it was one of those moments where I was like, “What? You do what?”
Canopy Host (23:44)
I’ve just started learning about iPaaS software — integration platform as a service. It enables your ability to tie into open APIs. But keep going.
Michelle Voyer (23:53)
Exactly. And honestly, this is one of the reasons I keep automation and AI separate. They provide a lot of the same value, but the functionality — what’s actually happening on the backend — is very different.
What I love right now is that AI is still not extremely trustworthy. We all know that if you use ChatGPT or Copilot in your daily life, it’s not just fully doing things for you. You still need to review it.
Canopy Host (25:03)
If you’re not familiar with the term “work slop,” it’s a thing. Please do not pass along anything from ChatGPT, Copilot, Gemini, or Claude without reviewing it first. It can embarrass you. It saves time — I lean on it every day — but you need human eyes on it.
Michelle Voyer (25:07)
You can use it to give your work a real lift, but you need it in your own tone. It will learn your tone over time if you coach it. Even if something sounds really good, if it doesn’t sound like me, I keep coaching it and tweaking it until it feels like something I would have written — but clearer, because AI is helping convey what I actually meant. My favorite instruction to give it: “Smooth this out. Keep my tone, keep my language, keep my style, but smooth it out.”
Canopy Host (26:04)
Something we did recently as a team at Canopy that you’d love: we built digital twins. If you post things or record transcripts, you’re capturing your voice. I uploaded transcripts of this podcast behind my digital twin and it knows how I talk. That’s your homework.
Michelle Voyer (26:28)
I love that. There’s so much untapped potential in Copilot alone. I was just speaking with someone highly respected in AI and automation, and they said: “Seriously, Copilot. There’s so much you can do with it.” We have Copilot committees. We’re going a million miles an hour. But 100% — we’re trying to do more with agents and things.
Someone made a funny point though: everyone wants an agent for everything now, and it’s not always the right fit.
Canopy Host (28:04)
Seriously. There are lots of wins and potential, but you still need a human touch with everything.
Canopy Host (28:18)
As we wrap up, I’ve got a few rapid-fire questions. Are there any buzzy things happening in CAS that you think will fade? Or a trend you’re fully on board with?
Michelle Voyer (28:36)
AI. It’s such a buzz right now and everyone’s racing to get there. This year was such a year for the rise of AI. At our firm, we went through all the proper security and compliance steps to fully go all in on Copilot. One year of this has been absolutely transformational.
So I’d say it’s buzzy, but it’s real and it’s not going away. Just be careful with what you’re hopping on and the decisions you’re making. We’re still in the process of vetting the right tool to power our CAS department, and it won’t be just one tool. It’s identifying where the gaps are, because we have different clients on different ERPs with different third-party systems.
We listed out all the things we actually want AI to do for our CAS work — not what vendors told us was possible, but what we genuinely need. Copilot handles a lot of the administrative stuff: emails, communications, all of that. But we need to automate the CAS work itself — the monthly close, transaction categorization. Transaction categorization automation is a huge time suck. We’ve been vetting solutions and we’re in the final stages now.
Canopy Host (32:04)
The future of accounting is advisory. Machine learning, AI — generative and future models — is going to get so good with numbers and data. But you as the accountant, as the expert, still need to decode that for the client and take care of the relationship. There are exciting things ahead that are just going to push people to be better and better at their craft.
Last rapid-fire question: what’s one thing CAS leaders should stop doing immediately?
Michelle Voyer (33:14)
Don’t pressure yourself so much. If you’re fortunate enough to attend some of the CAS groups at conferences, don’t assume everyone is light years ahead of you, because they simply aren’t.
And don’t prescribe things to your team without making them feel involved. What came up in a conversation this week is the concept of “enduring change” — you don’t want your team to feel like this is another thing we’re enduring this year. We’ve been keeping our team informed, including them in demos, making them part of forming the requirements for what we want AI to do. They’ve been on the demos so they can see the platforms. We’ve been very open about our journey.
Don’t forget about your team. And don’t feel like you’re behind if you haven’t started yet. There’s a whole year ahead, and a lot of folks have paved the way in asking the hard questions. Some of the providers we’ve been looking at — if we talked to them at the beginning of this year versus the middle versus now, and saw how far they’ve come in developing something truly viable for our clients. We’re benefiting from others who had the time and patience to work with these up-and-coming AI-native tools. Getting into it next year only means more of those solutions are ready for your clients.
Canopy Host (35:45)
People have gone before you — vendors, advisors, whoever. There’s no longer a blank page. That makes all of this way more approachable, and lowers the barrier to entry. Thank you, Michelle.
Michelle Voyer (35:49)
My pleasure. Thank you so much.
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Lori Zukin
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By: Chrissy Rutledge
Chrissy is the Social Media & Content Marketing Specialist at Canopy.
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